Professor Joseph Allen, DSc MPH We’re an indoorspecies, 90 percent of our time indoors. Theindoor environment is just having this massive massive impact on our health. We’Ve done past workshowing that ventilation not only helps in termsof infectious disease, this virus and others, but also it has many benefits and one is bettercognitive function performance, But fewer people even to this day are thinking about ventilationand filtration in their homes, offices, schools, wherever
We know how to keep kids and adultssafe in school. It should absolutely shock you because there’s an assumption that theproducts we buy are safe. But what happens?
Is they often replace the toxic chemical witha chemical cousin? That’S just as toxic, and we call this “ chemical whack-a-mole, .”, Kyle, Allred MedCram, Co-Founder & Producer. Welcome
I’M here with Professor Joe Allenfrom, the Harvard School of Public Health and, if you’re interested in practical waysthat, you can improve your home, your workplaceand, our schools, not only from aCOVID-19 transmission standpoint, but as places that can improve youroverall health and mental performance. There may be no better person to talk with thanProfessor Allen.
He’S co-author of a book called” Healthy Buildings, ,” and he’s published over 70different articles in peer-reviewed journals, including some excellent research on COVID-19.And Professor. Since I started following yourwork a few months ago, I made a varietyof changes to my home to my workplace. Even some of the products I buy, so I’m reallyexcited for our viewers to meet you and learn fromyou, and thanks so much for making time for this. Professor Allen Yeah it’s great to be here, Andthat’s, quite a compliment.
I mean we reallywork hard to take the science and translateit into actionable tips for people sothat’s really rewarding to hear you’veactually taken it and made some changes.
Kyle Definitely And we’ll start with someCOVID-19 questions, and then we can hopefullyget into just healthy buildings in generalat the end. But I want to start withsomething that everyone’s familiar with now and that’s plexiglass or barriers, similar toplexiglass
We see them in stores, we see themin workplaces. How effective are these
Can theygive a false sense of security And are there eventimes when they may do more harm than good Professor Allen? Yeah I mean the shortanswer is plexiglass is not the answer Andreally to understand why, let’s just think abouthow, this virus is transmitted, So comingfrom respiratory, aerosols, right
And theseare smaller particles that float through theair
So if you have a plexiglass divider that might capture ballistic droplets, you know like droplets, you can even see.
ut most of what you emit when you’rejust breathing or talking are fineraerosols that travel right around plexiglass.So plexiglass isn’t doing much and actually it can interfere with good airflow. In a room.So counterintuitively, it actually could bedoing more harm than good
That said, I want acaveat. There are some places, I think, plexiglassis a good idea If you think about a checkoutline with a cashier.
Many people are comingacross. That person. I think, that’s OK, to putthat there Kind of static locations where you’retrying to protect the worker. Just a bit more
Kyle, If I’m in an office building – and I have let’s say, plexiglass up six feet – high and I’mspaced at least six feet away from my coworkers, still a good idea to wear a mask indoors. Professor Allen Yeah absolutely Because, for the same reasons, if you’re in a roomand you’re with coworkers and you’re spaced, that’s good The amount or how much theaerosol’s built up indoors would be a function.
Ofhow much is emitted from an infectious person andhow. Well, the ventilation system is working,
And somasks are the single-most important intervention because you’re limiting the emissions or how muchis coming out
Even a simple mask could get you60 70 percent removal efficiency, So this is themost important intervention. We can do and I don’tsee masks going away any time soon. Certainly notuntil we get through this next surge. Whateverthis new variant brings us and until many many a large percentage of people are vaccinated.
Kyle We’ve all heard so much about washing hands, masks distancing. Why do you think there’s beenso little discussion about ventilation especiallyup until recently, when the CDC finally revisedtheir guidelines to include ventilation? Strategiesas part of their recommendations: Do you. Thinkventilation is as important as those other threepillars. If you will
Professor Allen, Yeah there’s no question and it has been such adisappointment and, quite honestly, it’s been soutterly confusing to me why the CDC World HealthOrganization many others have not acknowledgedairborne transmission, which then sets upbuildings and ventilation as a control measure.
So it doesn’t make sense to talk about ventilationand filtration unless you acknowledge airbornetransmission is happening.
We’Re coming up on ayear, since I wrote my first piece and publishedit talking about healthy buildings as the firstline of defense against this novel coronavirus and in that piece I said, there’s things we don’tknow and we don’t know for sure, but certainly weknow enough to know that We need to act and thatairborne transmission was likely, And that means we need more outdoor air and better filters.And. So this is, I think, I have 25 or 26 op-edssince last February and in every one, even thoughI’m talking about different topics: — airplanes, schools, –, I’m always talking aboutventilation
Fundamentally, it’s the same thing:
So it’s been really frustrating. I thinkfor everyone in my field who studies this.
That CDC would not acknowledge that airbornetransmission was happening. The evidence isjust airtight. We could talk about the basics, ofaerosol physics. We could talk about air samplingdata. We could talk about the epidemiology andhigh-profile case studies.
Everything points, toairborne transmission. We knew this inFebruary last year and every piece ofevidence has further supported it.
And that’sa problem for the exact reason you said: thatmany people have gotten a handle on thecontrol measures. Ok, I have to wash my hands. Distance is good.
Hopefully, people are wearingtheir masks, But fewer people even to this day are thinking about ventilation and filtrationin their homes, offices, schools, wherever.Kyle. What are some practical things peoplecould do today or tomorrow in their home ortheir office or their school, to make it saferfrom a ventilation and filtration standpoint, Professor Allen Yeah it’s actually quiteeasy and I’m not oversimplifying it.
But theway we talk about, it are really three steps, Thinkabout it this way. First, you want to increase theamount of outdoor air coming in
So if you’re in ahome, like I am, that means opening up the windowseven an inch or two It’s cold outside, where Iam but an inch or two really helps.
If you’re ina place with a mechanical ventilation system, youwant to open up the outdoor dampers, bring in moreoutdoor air because typically a building doesn’tbring in enough
It’S a bare minimum. You want togo above those bare minimums, So that’s numberone Same applies to the car, for example,
Rolldown your windows bring in more outdoor air
Number one Two, any air: that’s recirculated! You want to run through a higher efficiencyfilter, So maybe not everybody recognizesthat in say a commercial officebuilding with a mechanical system, some fraction of the air’s from outside, but a lotof. The air is recirculated And we don’t just wantto, be recirculating, virus-polluted air, of course, so you want to use what’s called a MERV 13 filter, M-E-R-V 13 or higher. That’S a filter thatcaptures about 80 percent of the particlesizes that we’re interested in for this virus.
Number three: if you can’t achieve what you need in terms of protection with those two you wantto use, portable air cleaners with a HEPA filter.This, is a simple device.
You can get it at yourlocal hardware, store even Plug and play We builta tool at my Harvard Healthy Buildings, Programwebsite with Shelly Miller at UC-Boulder thatlets, you calculate what size device you would needin your room based on the room size,
So really three things more outdoor air, better filter on recirculated air. If you can’t achieve it, use a portable air cleaner with aHEPA filter. It’S really that simple.
yle. I was looking at a chart earlier today. Thatshowed, the average air changes per hour that ahome or office building or school should try toachieve, and I think it was over six air changersper hour is optimal. I heard an interview with yourecently, where you mentioned that the average homein the United States has about 1/2 of an airchange per hour dramatically less than what’soptimal
Why do you think homes and officebuildings are so terrible with ventilation? Professor Allen, The answer is we don’t designbuildings for people and that’s shocking Saidbetter?
We don’t design it for people’s health right. We design for these bare minimums largelydriven by energy efficiency, which is criticallyimportant but often at the expense of health.And. You know it was about the time in the 70swe started, tightening up our building, envelopesto save energy in response to the energy crisis and it ushered in the era of sick buildingsand. The term “ sick building syndrome” first appeared shortly after that.
Now, we’ve all spent time in these under-ventilatedspaces, You might describe it as “ stuffy”, or”, stale, ,” or you’re in a conference room andyou can’t concentrate and the door opens andit literally breathes life back into the room.And. So in all of the spaces we spend our time. People will be surprised, we get very lowventilation rates, So half an air change per hourmeans about half the volume in the air of yourhouse is being changed out And new condominiumsthat are super. Airtight can be 0
1 air changes perhour so really little exchange happening, Schoolsshould, be if they’re meeting code three airchanges per hour, but most of them only get 1.
.So. We have many places that aren’t even meetingthe minimum standards, let alone a healthystandard and it’s a real problem. Kyle. I want to ask you a little bit more aboutportable air purifiers
I have two in my home andI think they might be good examples that peoplecan learn from and learn from my mistakes.
One ofthem I bought years ago – It’s not a HEPA filter, but it has some kind of fancy features. It’S got a UV option that you can turn on. It’S got. An ionization option Are theseeffective at stopping transmission of viruseslike the SARS-CoV-2 virus and are they necessary Professor Allen, Yeah so first thing I’ll, say then I’ll answer? Your question is ifyou’re.
Looking for a portable air, cleaner, look for a HEPA filter and nothing else,
Youdon’T want any of these bells and whistles.But I’ll answer your question directly. Becauseit was different. Can UV inactivate a virus? Sure absolutely Do you need it in a portableair, cleaner, that’s in your house or your office.
Absolutely not You’re, probably paying more forit and the reason you don’t need it is becauseall you need is a good fan in your portableair, cleaner, blowing air against a HEPA filter which captures nearly all airborneparticles
So you don’t need any of thosebells and whistles, and you have to be careful. Ifyou use something like ionization in particular, because they can generate ozone, which is arespiratory hazard and you’d, be putting thatright into your breathing zone. They can generateformaldehyde, which is another respiratory hazard, and they can also generate ultra-fine particles, which is another respiratory hazard. So you wantto be careful that we’re not solving one problemand, creating others and importantly there’ssomething else. That’S actually less expensivethat will do the job the same or even better.
So, for those reasons you need to avoidionization and UV in a portable air cleaner.Just, look for a good HEPA filter with what’scalled a good clean air delivery rate.
And Ican talk about that more if you’re interested d Kyle Yeah, I am because I got a HEPA filterthis summer because of the forestfires here in Oregon were so bad, and I heard you mention that clean air deliveryrate and mine is well below that. I think mineis. 150
So yeah, could you explain, whatthat is, and what number you should look for, Professor Allen, Yeah and that’s interesting youbought it for the wildfires.
That’S a great idea, because the mechanics are the same.And I’ll talk about clean air deliveryin. A second All you’re doing is removingparticles from the air, be it from smoke wildfires or cigarette smoke or respiratoryaerosols.
You’Re just capturing these particles, so that’s the basics, The clean air delivery, rateis, something you can find on most air cleaners where they actually measure this
And it’s acombination of how much air moves across a filterand. How good that filter is So you can imagine you have the world’s best filter and a poor fan, and it should have a low, clean air delivery rate.
It’S not that good, even if it has a good filter.The opposite could be true.
You could have a fanthat’s super powerful, moving a lot of air but aterrible filter. That’S not gon na do much good.So.
The clean air delivery rate is something thatcombines. Both factors – The clean air delivery, rateis in units of CFM cubic feet per minute, So ifyou took the CADR clear air delivery rate ona box. From one of these manufacturers, you couldestimate how many air changes per hour, you’d getfrom your room,
And the formula is super simple.Clean air delivery rates. Let’S take that 300.
00 CFM times 60. So now it’s 300 feet per hour, divided by the volume of the room length timeswidth times height. So if you had a 300 CADRin, a 500 square-foot room with 8-foot ceilings, you’re gon na get over four air changes per hour. It’S gon na be 4.5 air changes per hour.
So thecalculation’s pretty simple and our team hasrecommended for small volume, spaces trying toget 4-6 air changes per hour And remember thetypical home is half an air change perhour. So it’s 10 times higher than that.So. It becomes really easy to then find a portableair cleaner. That’S the right size for your room and, if that all sounded too much or you didn’tfollow it, we have a tool on our website.
Thatyou just put in the size of your room, and it letsyou know what to look for in terms of the cleanair delivery rate. For a portable air, cleaner Kyle Thanks a lot Yeah, we’ll definitely linkto that
And some of these HEPA filters, I mean they’re, not that expensive right, You can get some around $ 200 or less Professor Allen. Yeah! That’S right! I mean you could find one for a lot more thanthat that has all the bells and whistles sensors and all these things.
But if you wanta basic one and that’s all – you need really.You turn it on. It’S got a good CADR lookfor, a clean air delivery rate over 300 um yeah it’ll be about two or three hundred dollars and that’ll be great for a room of that size.
Kyle, You and your team have done a lotof research and had commentary on masks, and I was in the situation about a month ago, ofwanting to buy some new masks because ones I hadearly on in the pandemic were two-layeredmasks and they didn’t fit all that well.So.
Can you walk through some tips? I knoweveryone has heard a lot about masks. Butit still can be a daunting process to figure outexactly what mask to actually purchase
Can yougo through some tips on really optimizing masks, Professor Allen Yeah and I feel for people
Itis confusing out there and at this point in thepandemic it shouldn’t be confusing and we shouldbe well beyond the “ anything goes” period of themask. That said, I’ll talk about masks in termsof, low risk activities, — going for a walk, andmaybe you’re, going to pass by someone and staydistanced Any old mask. I think that’s good.
ou have a cloth mask simple cloth mask fine.Going to the grocery store, you’re gonnawant, something a bit better and certainlyif you’re in an occupation where you’re arounda lot of people you’re going to want somethingthat’s even more efficient
But here’s the basics right: It’s a function of the filter, efficiencyand the fit, and that makes sense right, Youwant, something that’s going to capture a lotof, the particles coming out, but it also has tofit on your face pretty well or else insteadof going through the filter. It’S just going tocome out through the sides or through the top.And, so we recommend two or three layermasks, because they have high efficiency or pretty good efficiency. Like a goodsurgical mask a blue surgical mask.
f, you want something: that’s moreefficient! You could go to the N95 which are hard to get and there are some shortagesstill in healthcare unbelievably, at this point,
Something that’s called a KN95 butI can mention to be careful there because there have been counterfeit KN95s on themarket And the N95 stands for 95 % efficient.But. There is a way to get close to N95 withjust materials that you probably have accessto right now, And so a colleague of mine LinseyMarr put out a paper with a colleague of hers where they showed that a simple surgical mask witha cloth mask over. It gave you over 91 % efficiency.
nd, really what that cloth mask is doing ishelping with that fit.
So you’ve, maybe seenblue surgical masks and some gaps on the side.Well. If you put a mask on top of that now, you’rereally forcing that air through those filters.But, here’s the most important thing about masks.
t’s, less about the individual removalefficiency and more about the combinedbenefit. So when everybody wears a mask particleshave to go through two filters,
So even if I havea 70% percent efficient mask and you have a 70%efficient mask, the combined efficacy is 91%.Add in spacing between us, putin ventilation and filtration,and you can quickly get to exposure reductionsof 99% or more. So this is where the power ofuniversal masking comes in, even if people haveimperfect masks or they’re not fit exactly right.It’s the combined benefit that’s what’sproviding the big benefit for everybody.
yle: And in a high risk environment, that’sreally interesting about wearing a clothmask over top of a surgical mask.
I’Ve also heardcome discussion about inexpensive mask fitters, so like a piece of rubber that can go, aroundthe mask to help achieve a better fit.Do. You have any familiarity with those Professor Allen, So I’ve seen them Ihaven’t, tested them or actually haven’t lookedat the data, but the logic of it makes a lotof sense. I’Ve seen people do all sorts of simpletips like that in trying to improve the fit evenwith the loops in the back tying them tighteror cross-stitching them.
And the idea right is that’s all you’re trying to do make. Sureit goes over the bridge of the nose. It’S flushagainst the face and comes around your chin Andso. If you have a loose mask, that’s not going tohelp that much so any kind of face mask fitting or even something that can tie and tighten itis gon na provide a big benefit And the way tothink about that. If you think about an N95 mask, which is technically a half-face respirator, if you were given one of those, if you workedin a hospital – and you were given one of those, you would have to go through.
What’S called “ fittesting .” And the idea of fit testing is to besure that the fit is good.
So we know fit matters in fact: there’s all sorts of regulationsaround fit testing, but to the average person you just want to make sure you can get by witha regular mask that’s sealed pretty well or dosome of these other tricks to improve the fit
Kyle So we’ve talked about masks: we’ve talkedabout ventilation, a bit. What about humidity Does humidity play a big role in transmissionand, should we consider humidifying our homes, Professor Allen, Yeah humidity? It’S interesting.
I wrote about this in thefirst couple pieces. I wrote last winter and then I stopped writing about it through thespring and summer. I think for obvious reasons.And. Then colleagues and I wrote about itagain in November.
Humidity’S important, but I put it as a “ nice to have ,” not a”, must have .”, Maybe I’ll talk about the”, what’s happening”, and why and why Ithink it’s challenging for buildings.So, it’s probably helping in two different waysat least. Maybe three First is our respiratorysystem
So in our lungs we have what’s calleda, mucociliary, escalator or mucociliary clearance, and that’s the cells of our lungs are lined withcilia and they’re. All beating right.
Anything webreath in many of the particles are captured, inthe mucus and the cilia bring it up, and we swallowit harmlessly Great defense mechanism. Cleansout our lungs Low humidity, and here I’m talkingabout, 20 percent humidity. Actually, the beatingof, the cilia, a colleague of ours, just showed thisbeautifully animated that it’s less efficient.You have less clearance.
So your immune system, or your should say, respiratory system’s defenses function better at humidity in the 40-60 % relative humidity range
Not a problem in thesummer, but in the winter, when the humiditygets down to 20 % 30 %.
It’S not ideal, Secondin other ways: it’s influencing transmission sowhen, it’s less humid. The virus survives better, which is maybe counterintuitive to some people. Sothe virus survivability is less at 40-60 %. Relativehumidity
And last it also may influence howquickly droplets evaporate and how long they canstay aloft. So for a few reasons, it can influencedisease transmission and also host susceptibility.
The problem and why I think it’s a “ nice to have”, not a “, must have” is that most buildings can’tdo anything about it. If you have a mechanicalsystem, it’s really hard to retrofit or any timeyou’re adding water into a building. It gets verytricky. But your question at the beginning: right, if you’re home, sure, If you have a portablehumidifier, my team we’ve had papers maybe 10years ago modeling, the humidity inside homes, andinfluenza transmission,
And yeah you can bringup the humidity into that 40-60 % relative humiditysweet spot through a portable humidifier
Kyle You mentioned car travel early andhow, just cracking a window in a car, can makeit significantly safer from a transmissionstandpoint. How about air travel?
How safedo you think air travel is and what are someof the most high-risk parts of air travel, Professor Allen, Yeah! So I’ll do a littlecredentialing, unfortunately, just to establishthat. I’Ve done work, not just on buildings but onairplanes for over 10 years. In 2013 I was one ofthe lead authors of a National Academies report, oninfectious disease transmission in airports and onairplanes
So I’ve studied this for a long time and I wrote an op-ed in the Washington Post. Maybeit was in May that seemed to surprise people, because I said you don’t get sickwhen you’re on an airplane really.
nd. That’S because, if you think aboutwhat’s happening these fundamentalfactors we’re talking about — ventilationand, filtration –, when you’re on an airplane, the ventilation’s, actually quite good.
So you get10 or 20 air changes per hour, Recall the homeis about half an air change and our target. Was4-6 Hospitals will target 6 air changes, exceptfor the most extreme and then they’ll target 12air changes.
So an airplane you’re getting alot of air.
Second, all of that recirculated air. Remember, I said in buildings we’d like a MERV 13 that gets about 80 %. Well, an airplane everythingthat’s recirculated goes through a HEPA filter.That’s, 99.97 %
So it turns out when you’reon an airplane and the systems are running, it’s probably one of the lowest risk timesduring.
The whole travel experience Now add on masks. On top of that, which is an excellentidea and the risk gets even lower Now that’snot to say it can’t happen.
Can transmissionhappen Yeah transmission can happen anywhere?
It’S just lower risk than most people think andwe have millions and millions of passengers evento date, and we have a handful of cases that aresuspected — and I’m not even sure, all of them areaccurate — a handful of cases or instancesof transmission on an airplane. That said, there are areas during travel that I thinkare important.
We know restaurants are higherrisk Well, when you’re in an airport, lots ofopportunities to sit at a restaurant at a bar masks come off, So I think those are higherrisk.
Also, during boarding on an airplane, we warned in our 2013 report that airplanes do notalways, have the ventilation systems running whilepeople are boarding
That’S a mistake And I hope –. I called this out in the op-ed in May and we’vebeen talking about it ever since — airlineshave to have ventilation on when the plane’sat the gate. Otherwise, you are cramming a lot ofpeople into a small volume space When the systemsare running the ventilation and filtrationare great, but they’re not always running
Kyle Speaking of that, you mentioned in aprevious discussion how a portable CO2 monitorcan be a way to measure kind of a surrogate tomeasure air quality, and it made me think of itwith airplanes. If the engine’s not running andyou, have one of those could the CO2 levels raiseto unacceptable levels, And is this somethingthat people should consider for their workplaceif they’re concerned about ventilation issues?
Professor Allen, Yeah, I mean the reason weknow that airplane ventilation can be poorduring. Boarding is because we’ve measured, it.I published a paper a couple years ago: lookingat CO2 concentrations during the whole flight, including boarding, and we see CO2 concentrationssometimes over 2500 parts per million at boarding.Now for reference. If you’re meeting aminimum standard, it’s gon na be under 1000
And so I’m with you, I’ve got one right, hereon, my desk too right.
So I’m over 1000 partsper million
I should open up my door get somecross ventilation going in here. That’S too high.But. You know the other side of this, I’m in my own home with my family. I would never have somebody over here right nowwith, these conditions,
If had somebody in here, which I wouldn’t I’d, have a mask on windows, open I’d, have my air purifier going.
o? I think these things are gaining tractionbecause, the other controls we have people canassess
I can tell if you’re wearing a mask yousee hand washing you see, distancing, But youcan’t tell if the air is clean. So this is a wayto kind of get a sense of a space right. You haveno idea what’s happening in my office unless Idid this
I wouldn’t know The challenge with CO2monitoring ..
, So first CO2, if you’re notfamiliar with it, is a proxy for ventilation where the main source of CO2 indoors ifyou’re well, ventilated CO2 would be low and vice versa.
The problem, though isthat there are two really main mechanismsfor controlling this virus indoors in the air.It’s ventilation or filtration, So ventilationwill change the CO2 concentrations but filtrationwon’t So said better. I could be in this officewith. My air purifier, going with my HEPA filter, have a thousand parts per million of CO2 which isn’t good from a ventilation standpoint, but be totally fine because the filter is working.
o. You have to be careful with CO2, it’s onlycovering half of the control measures indoors.
Kyle Interesting And I’ve heard you alsospeak about how, when ventilation drops andpotentially CO2 levels rise indoors, cognitiveperformance can suffer as well. Tell us more aboutthat. I thought that was very interesting.
Professor Allen Yeah, I mean right now we’re thinking about half of health, whichis disease avoidance, and rightly so, but here’s a whole other aspect of health right.
It’S flourishing, it’s wellbeing. It’S the positive aspects of health, andfeeling! Well,
And so we’ve done past workshowing that ventilation not only helps in termsof infectious disease, this virus and others, but also it has many benefits and one is bettercognitive function performance, So we’ve donestudies. We use people in a really controlledoffice environment where we have them: dotheir normal work, routine.
We administeredthese complex cognitive function, tests and, while they’re in the room, we change theair they’re breathing. We change the CO2 levels, we change ventilation without them. Knowing It’s aguinea pig type of scenario,
It’S a double-blindedstudy, and what we find is that when people arein these environments with better air quality low CO2, they perform significantly better onthese tasks of higher-order cognitive, functionin domains. Like strategic decision making information usage crisis response, things that are really relevant to everydayfunctioning, but also the types of work we alldo every day,
And I think that’s surprising topeople that study surprised people because wedidn’t test anything exotic. We just changedthe levels slightly indoors to levels that mostbuildings could attain And we went above the bareminimums that are required And when you do that our study and many others now
There’S decadesof research showing the benefits of going beyondthese kind of code, minimum standards that we setin buildings beyond infectious disease, benefits.
yle Beyond ventilation. Are there any otherdesign changes that you think can contribute toa, healthy building and better performance, betterwork performance or school performance for kids? Professor Allen Yeah I mean so we released –. So there’s a lot of things.
And right now the world rightly so, is thinking aboutventilation air quality, filtration humidity.
ut, we released a couple years ago, called” The Nine Foundations of a Healthy Building ,”, and it was in response to questions just likeyou asked where people say “. Well what elsematters
“ We realize that, despite all this greatresearch, not a lot had been hitting the markin terms of the people who were designing andoperating buildings. So we released this report ,” The Nine Foundations of a Healthy Building ,”, where we talk about air quality, water quality lighting and views or biophilic design, acousticperformance thermal conditions, dust and pests, safety and security. You know all of thesefactors that really have a deep scientificbody of literature behind them, supporting themand showing how each one is associated. Withsometimes, better cognitive function, reduced “, sickbuilding” symptoms.
Some of these are associatedwith reduction in asthma. So there is a reallyrich body of scientific knowledge out there on allthe ways that a building influences our health, Kyle And speaking of buildings influencing ourhealth and ways to make them safer. You’Ve beena big advocate for getting kids back to schoolfor in-person learning and that itcan be done safely for both teachersand students.
What is the landscape right, nowin, the United States for in-person learning and what are some of the consequences of kidsnot being in school for in-person learning, Professor Allen, Yeah I’ve been saying this is anational emergency. It’S been a national emergencysince, we first closed schools and I don’t thinkit’s been treated as such And it’s something thatI’m working 24/7.
7 days a week. I can’t stopthinking about this topic, trying to think ,”. What else can we do?
“, What other tools canwe put out there to help schools get back because it is so concerning? What’S happening.
he costs are enormous, with kids out of school.This included virtual dropouts. We knew it fromthe spring right in Boston, where I was 10,000 –, 10,000 — high school students. Unaccountedfor in May, We’ve seen impacts –. Actually, thevirtual dropout issue has persisted
A report from60 Minutes just a week ago, Hundreds of thousandsof kids missing in the system Totally missing.
nd talking about how schools are really our firsteffort to detect issues with kids or find out whyare they out. Are they having problems at home?
Unicef reports, kids, are out of school, greater risk of exploitation, abuse, neglect, violence, There’s food security issues. I wrote anop-ed with a colleague of mine, Dr. Sara Bleich, talking about a billion missed school meals, inthe spring alone from schools, closed –, a billionmissed meals,
And this has continued now: andwe’re coming up on a year of schools, closed
We’Ve seen decrements or losses in learningand.
We have reports –, it’s not one areaof, the country, — we’ve had reports out ofVirginia Los Angeles in Texas in Minnesota.We, see losses and gains in literacy Thisis, just the beginning of these impacts.We’re, just starting to uncover these. We willsee these kinds of reports for months and years, and this is why I call it a national emergencyand. Here’S the flip side of that
We know how tokeep kids and adults safe in school.
e know. Thatschools are not driving transmission. We had thisdata in June from studying what wasgoing on in Europe, We had many YMCAsand childcare centers opened in NewYork through the peak of the springspike. We had camps open through the summer,
Wenow have data through the fall that schools arenot driving this Transmission through the schoollooks, just like transmission in the community.And.
When we put in these control measures, likeuniversal masking ventilation and filtration.We’ve been harping on these since Junewhen my team released. This full report.We can keep kids and adults safe.
Importantly, these are not just about keeping kids safe.
t’s about keeping everyone in thebuilding safe. We do get some advantageswith kids. The virus has spared us innow ways, except this one. Miraculously.The risk of a kid dying from COVID is one ina million.
That’S the most recent study, inJAMA They’re about half as likely to get it asadults. So we are getting some benefit, they cantransmit it. They can definitely get it and kidscan definitely die, but it is very rare, So weget another benefit when it comes to schools.So weighing those factors to me is absolutelyimperative that we get kids back in school safelyand that schools put in these mitigation measureswe’ve been talking about.
And the costs are justso massive and just so deeply deeply concerning.
t’s, why? I call it a nationalemergency, the national emergency.Kyle And you and your team have put out a PDFwith, some simple steps that schools can followto, make their environments safer, correct Professor Allen Yeah. So many resources.So, my Harvard Healthy Buildings program, is aforhealth.
Org and we have a page dedicatedto schools, schools.forhealth.org
We have a60-page report and PDF and also on the websiteon holistic risk reduction strategies that alsotalk about the specific of these healthy buildingmeasures, the target air changes per hour, ventilation, filtration tips and tricksfor. What you can do, We’ve also released a 5-stepguide for assessing ventilation.
So if you’re notsure, what to do in your school or what it lookslike, we went out in schools over the summer, onthe weekends were measuring ventilation rates, andturned it into a guide that any school can use.
e built a tool to help you calculateportable air cleaners, written 7 Or 8 op-edstalking about how portable air cleaners canhelp with a HEPA filter and other strategies.So, we put out many of these guidance documents, awhite paper on the science around risk reductionand air filtration. So we tried to put out theseguides to help schools get back and we’ve workedwith schools. I know there’s an entire statethat’s using that report as their strategy.
I get calls from really all over the countryfrom different districts that have used that asa template.
So there are other guides out there too, and I just think the important thing is thatyou do something I think some schools haven’tput in any control measures – and I think that’sa mistake too And if they haven’t had cases, Ithink, they’re getting lucky and maybe with the newvariant. That’S more transmissable their luck, mayrun out, So it’s absolutely imperative to put inthese simple, relatively simple control measures we’re talking about
Kyle, I want to ask you about some of the productsthat we all have in our homes or use every day.And. I have a water bottle here that says: BPA freeon it and when I read some of your book when youtalk about how some of these chemicals — I think” chemical whack-a-mole” was the term you used.So.
Could you talk a little bit aboutthat? Why something like “, BPA free” may not give the security that we hope it would Professor Allen Yeah so moving to the topic ofchemicals, this is a massive topic that doesn’tget enough attention.
It’S something: I’ve beenstudying for a long time and you’ll really get megoing, because there’s a chapter in the middle ofour book –, I’m not trying to sell a book here –, but it talks about our global chemical experiment and I promise, if you read it, it should Shock you.It should absolutely shock you because there’san assumption that the products we buy are safeand. If there was a chemical, that’s toxic, well, ofcourse, it shouldn’t be in your water bottle, ormy couch or my kids’ car seat.
But here’s howit works and here’s the problem. There are over80,000 chemicals in commerce, very few have beentested for health and safety, And so what happensis? We don’t follow the precautionary principle Weallow companies to put these chemicals in commerceand. If we as scientists, find out it’s harmful. They take it out.
But what happens? Is they oftenreplace the toxic chemical with a chemical cousinthat’s just as toxic, And we call this “ chemicalwhack-a-mole .” And it’s this never-ending gamethat’s been played for decades And BPA is agreat example. So if you’re, a customer you’rewell-meaning, you look at your bottle and onesays “ BPA free
“ Well I’ll get the BPA free one.BPA must be bad.
Even if you know nothing, aboutBPA and BPA stands for bisphenol A It’s ahormone interrupting chemical. That’S used insome plastics. The reality is, though, BPA got abad, rap and so manufacturer’s seized on this andsaid “. Well, I’m gon na sell BPA-free everything.
“, They didn’t just take out BPA, They took out BPA, but they replaced it with its chemical cousin BPS for bisphenol S.
Sure enough. The toxicologicalprofile looks exactly the same darn near similarto BPA. So that way they played a game with you.As. A consumer BPA free is great
That label mightas well say “, contains BPS .
‘ BPS is starting toget a bad rap. You know what the replacement is BPF. This goes on and on
We’Ve seen this withpesticides decades ago, We see this “ chemicalwhack-a-mole” in nail polish, We see swapping ofchemicals in e-cigarettes. We see this in flameretardants that are in your couch in my couch.We, see this with these “ forever chemicals ,” these stain, repellent chemicals that can causetesticular cancer.
That you find in nonstick, pansthat are used on carpets and there was onethat was labeled “ bad ,”, so that was removedand were just subbed in for another one.
So this game of chemical whack-a-molehappens all the time and we sometimescall it “ regrettable substitution” – is the less playful name for it, but it’s anothername I don’t like because it implies “. Oh whoops, we made a mistake:
It’S a regrettablesubstitution, Whoops .”. This has been happeningfor decades.
There’S nothing regrettable! Aboutit!
It’S a knowing failure of the system and aloophole in our chemical policy And here’s whereit’s interesting for all of us and everybody.These chemicals. They migrate out of theirproducts And if you take something likethese forever chemicals, the ones that are in yournonstick pans and in your carpets and are in ourclothes –, it makes things water and soil justwash off these days.
We love them as consumers.
Well, these things are really pernicious, Theylast in the environment forever. I wrote anop-ed calling them forever chemicals and namedthem that two or three years ago, at this pointwhen that piece came out But they’re associatedwith, these harmful effects, carcinogenic, effects.They’re, called “ obesigens
“ They interferewith lipid metabolism, So we have all of these. You know known adverse effects.
We keep usingthem and we have this chemical whack-a-mole and the problem with these forever chemicalsis that at this point 6,000 variants.So. What do we even study? Next right, Soas, a consumer? We really have no chance tobe like a thoughtful consumer and avoid thesethings, because it’s a totally broken system.
Kyle Any specific recommendations for people tohelp navigate this system of chemical whack-a-moleand, finding products that are safe to use Professor Allen Yeah. So I think the firstthing is all getting informed about this. Becausei think few people know this is going on.
Again, I’m not trying to sell a book here, but you couldlook up “ forever chemicals .”, Look up this op-edon chemical whack-a-mole!
If you’re interested read that chapter
And you’d be really surprised and then you can start asking for it. I’Ll sayfrom a system standpoint we’re trying to addressthis through my Healthy Buildings Program atHarvard with Harvard’s Office for Sustainability.We, created the Harvard Healthy Building, MaterialsAcademy
And what we’re doing is starting tochange buying practices So, instead of a companysaying, here’s something that doesn’t have BPA we’re starting to ask and say “ well, whatelse is in it
And by the way we don’t wantanything in that whole class of chemicals .” Right we’re not gon na play this whack-a-mole game.Forever chemicals.
We don’t want any of them, Idon’t care. What your next “ safe” replacement, isthat, you tell us – is safe that we’ll find out istoxic And we’re having a lot of success.
We haveover 40 pilot projects on our campus wherewe’re, showing that you can design these spaceswith great products that don’t impact costor time of your projects. They look great perform the same and you don’t have thetoxic chemicals in them. So there’s a wayto.
Do it and we’re trying to move that with themarket We partnered with Google two years agoon this initiative, Many other manufacturers bigcompanies, are starting to put their buying powerbehind this movement to kind of rid the marketof, these toxic chemicals that are in everything.They’re in our deodorants and Shampoos and Idon’t use shampoo. That’S a bad example for me, but in our couches chairs, they’re allaround us
So the way to do it is tomove upstream and change the whole system Kyle. Well, professor thanks. So much forall of your research and advocacy for this.
efore. I let you go any last things thatyou want to mention before we chat next time. Professor Allen Yeah. I just want to say thanks, and I really appreciate the interview becauseit’s rare, to touch on COVID, but also talk aboutall, other aspects of healthy building and theneven end on that topic of chemicals. Right
Sowe think about healthy buildings and it’s allof these spaces
And the last thing I’ll say issomething I usually start my presentations with, but I think it emphasizes why healthy buildingsmatter so much We’re an indoor species, Wespend 90 percent of our time indoors and soit’s obvious.
I think when we think of it thatway that the indoor environment is just havingthis massive impact on our health But thereare ways to do it better. We’Ve been in the sickbuilding era, but it doesn’t mean we don’t knowhow or can’t do it better going forward.
Any myhope with a silver lining coming from COVID is nowwith everybody recognizing just how much the builtenvironment and building influence our healththat. It leads to a fundamental shift and changein terms of how we prioritize these places. Wherewe live work, play pray, heal that we startdesigning them with a health-first perspective.
Kyle Well, we’ll be sure to put links tosome of the resources that you mentioned, andthanks again, Really appreciate it. Professor.Professor Allen, Yeah thanksfor, having me on
I enjoyed it,
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